Streamlining Course Design for Real Learning with Rebecca Cuevas

Course Lab: Rebecca Cuevas Editor’s Notes:Please remove filler words like Uhm, uh, or repeated words. [“Mirasee Sig Sound w:Danny”]

[MX] Marie_Bossa_BB_instrumental_2_52.wav at full volume for 3 second break, and then ducks beneath the quote at a low volume. This first section uses the “part 1” audio files for each speaker. [07:47:13] many people are, are promoting, you know, that how great online courses are as selling a digital product, but the difference between a course and some other kind of digital product, is that in order for it to work, people have to actually learn from it.

[MX] Marie_Bossa_BB_instrumental_2_52.wav at full volume again for 2 seconds or so break, and then ducks beneath the introduction, very low. Abe: CLab RebeccaC part 1 Abe.wav [00:00:17] Mirasee. Hello, and welcome to Course Lab. The show that teaches course creators like you, how to make better online courses. I’m Abe crystal co-founder of Ruzuku and I'm here with my cohost, Danny Iny, the founder and CEO of Mirasee. In each episode, we showcase a course and course creator who is doing something really interesting with their course. Our guest today is Rebecca Cuevas. Rebecca is the CEO and founder of learn and get smarter, Inc, where she teaches busy creative experts and entrepreneurs to create online courses. Rebecca, welcome to course lab. [MX] Marie_Bossa_BB_instrumental_2_52.wav fades to silence under “be here.” Rebecca: Clab RebeccaC Part 1 Rebecca.wav [00:00:46] Hey, Abe. Hey, Danny. It's wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Abe: [00:00:51] absolutely. So we'd love to get started by having you give us kind of the, the big picture. So what is the, the 30,000-foot view of your work, your expertise, and how you came to this wild world of online courses? Rebecca: [00:01:04] well, you know, I've always, I came to this world of online courses from the world of offline courses and I've, I've been an educator for my entire career. And around 2007. I started every classroom I went into I was tripping over these digital whiteboards and I started thinking it would be great to take my effective face-to-face trainings and put them online. But when I tried that. I, you know, I did what most people do as a first step, which is take something that works well in the offline space and digitize it and put it online. And I discovered that it just really didn't create the same level of engagement that I was expecting and that I want to provide. So I went back to school for a second Master's in instructional technology. My first one is in curriculum development and I struggled really a lot for seven years to still solve that problem. You know, how do you create engagement? How do you create excitement and dynamic experience while also making it very focused and very streamlined for an online learning experience. And through the process of doing my master's project, as well as all the research and trial and error involved I discovered, uh, what I call the course design formula, which is my research-based process of online course design. And since, since I graduated from my second masters, I've tested it with hundreds of online course creators, creating all different kinds of courses and it works every time. So I'm really happy that, you know, when COVID hit, I mean, Nope, no one was expecting that. And I certainly wasn't, but it was such a joy to have something that could actually help people quickly get their courses online when they needed to and take away some of the stress and the overwhelm that people feel when they're coming from a place of having so much expertise and wondering how do I structure this? [03:05] Abe: [00:03:07] Very cool. So what's kind of your current sort of primary way that you work with people or what's your core offering and how much does that cost and so on? Rebecca: [00:03:17] well, I have three different ways I have, first of all, I have a book of the course design formula, how to teach anything to anyone online. So that's a great way for people to learn about the ideas and the research and how it can apply to them. And then I also have a community that's, that's free and we meet every Saturday morning. We've been meeting during the pandemic to talk about how to survive and thrive during these challenging times. And that's been like a think tank. That's been a wonderful experience. And then for paid offerings, I have private one-on-one course design coaching and with various packages, depending on how much coaching people need. And then I have it, my master course, which is the course design formula master course, which I offered two cohorts a year, one starting mid-June, and one starting mid-January. And that's like a. Really a community of practice for people who want to become transformational teachers in the online learning space and I've run it. This is going to be my fifth cohort in June and people who have been with me since the pilot that they have stayed in there. So it's just a growing community of very creative entrepreneurs and experts who are really passionate about teaching well online and I absolutely love that. I love my students. I love the way they synergize and network with each other. So it's really a joy. That's, that's really my life's work. And then I wanted to come up with something that would be more scalable and not required, you know, that's a very high-end high intensity process. The way I teach the master course, high intensity for me as well as for the students. So I wanted to offer something that a lot of people could use at a lower price point, but that would be highly effective. And I also wanted to scale my coaching practice, which as you know, is kind of an oxymoron. I mean, how do you. You can't scale yourself. Right? But I did my best and I think, I think I came up with something that works pretty well, which was to create a very guided practice focused course, evergreen course where learners will feel like I'm right there with them by their side, walking them through, getting their course designed. And I modeled it on my three coaching session package. So I know from having done that with so many clients, I know how much can get done. You know, in one work session. So, and, and it, I know that it takes, you know, three work sessions to basically high level outline a course. So I turned that into a course and I'm really excited about it because now more people can, can benefit from that without I tried to clone myself and I'm hoping I succeeded. Abe: [00:06:16] [overlapping, laughs] I mean, as, as this world of online courses has grown and gotten more popular and more mainstream. Uh, the attendant, you know, niche of how do you create a successful course it's also gotten more, uh, complex and crowded. So how do you situate yourself within that? What is kind of your niche or focus or differentiation within the world of like, I'll, I'll teach you how to build your online course? Rebecca: [00:06:41] well, first of all, I love that question and, you know, it's so interesting because when I started doing research for, you know, how, how do I set up a business to do this? I always knew I wanted to teach. I've been teaching my whole life, but how do I set up a business to teach people how to create online courses? The first thing that, that I discovered in most of the marketing training was, you know, go out and talk to find out who your competitors are, who else is in the field? So I was looking for all the other people that were teaching, you know, detailed, uh, trainings on online course design and slowly it dawned on me, There's nobody, you know, lots of people are teaching, you know, the, the business side, though nobody as well as you, Danny.. I really, I want to say that I'm so grateful for what you teach and the community you create. And I couldn't do this without, you know, the business guidance that you provide. So what I focus on is specifically how to structure the learning journey in the course., you know, many people are, are promoting, you know, that how great online courses are as selling a digital product, but the difference between a course and some other kind of digital product, is that in order for it to work, people have to actually learn from it. So how I situate myself is that I help you set up your course so that people can actually learn from it. And I also help you do it in a way that's fast and easy and fun for you. I have college professors in my, in my training or. You know, people who've been teaching offline for years. And that was me too. I didn't, I already knew how to teach, but how do you make it work, you know, really efficiently in the online space? [08:30]

So that's really my niche. And I learned from one of your trainings about the idea of being a category King. And I like to add the term, how about a category queen as well, which is somebody who's creating a new. A category of products and services. And you know, at first, when I thought, wait a minute, I seem to be the only one in the room. I mean, lots of people are teaching lots of people, know instructional design or teaching you how to teach in all different contexts, but nobody was, and I've actually had clients tell me too, that prospects that find me and come to a strategy session and they tell me that they say nobody else is doing what you're doing, which is, you know, have a method Of online course design that can slot into Mirasee's program or Amy Porterfield's or anybody's program on how to have the business where they, they mentioned and do go into some, some depth about, you know, how to set up your course, but they've got so much else. They have to cover that, that can't be the sole focus. So, you know, [09:37] For example, you know, We both came out with books around the same time and I was, you know, loved your book and, uh, leveraged learning. And, you know, I think I did, I looked at the page count of like my book fit it my whole book, my like 400 page book fit into nine pages of your book. So I'd say that, you know, your book gave us the, the broad perspective to understand where are we in the education landscape. And I feel like what you said has become even more prophetic, you know, with what's happened to higher education with COVID. My book goes very deep in a very narrow slice that fits into that. I, I hope that makes sense. And, and what's really fascinating is that what I, I didn't really know who my customer avatar was. I just thought, and I know that, you know, as my teacher, you would tell me, don't think this way, anybody who wants to create an online course, of course, that's not right. It turned out to be anybody who wants to create an online course. Who's a very creative outside the box thinker with their own intellectual property that they want to Transform into a course. That's very service oriented, very inspirational, and really makes a difference in people's lives. But the outside the box quality and the being the first person in the room and whatever your specific niche is, is minus quite a small niche, you know, but. That's what defines my target audience. And I discovered that on the first day of my pilot, which is when everyone we went around and everyone said what they were doing, we all looked at each other and went, this is a whole room full of like the swans from the ugly duckling story. You know, like we're, we're all different than everybody else around us. So it's, that's been very joyful to have a community of people who can find sameness in there differs from everyone else. If that makes any sense. Danny: Clab RebeccaC Danny.wav [00:11:36] it does. And I'm so, you know, it's, It's pretty meta, you know, you teach an online course about how to create excellent online courses, which of course I relate.
 Rebecca: Exactly. [00:11:47] But so especially given your focus on instructional design and on engineering transformation, you know, you've got to bake all the, all the, all the tips and all the tricks. That's all gotta be baked into the design of your course. Tell us about some of the things that you do in the design of your course to make it so effective? Rebecca: [00:12:05] Well, you know, one of the really challenging things for online learning is the issue of cognitive load, which is kind of the, if you think about it, like the friction or drag on the learning that's trying to get into your learners brain. And the trouble is that the online learning interface itself, just by the fact that it's online and not in person adds a lot of what's called extraneous cognitive load. In other words, it's not, it's not difficulty in learning that's part of the subject matter. It's difficulty in learning caused by the fact that people may not understand how to navigate or they're trying to download something, and it doesn't work right. You know, and all of us who feel their own tech support calls know how. Often that happens no matter what you do. So since I know where those friction points are now from running, you know, live cohorts so many times, I had the, I decided that I needed to restructure my, my content in a way that would eliminate navigation challenges while keeping interactivity and the solution that has really been helpful for that is digital flip books, which are, you know, those you can use. Usually they start life as a PowerPoint, and then you save your PowerPoint as a PDF, and then you upload it to a flip book making platform. Which there's lots of them, but the one that I use is flipsnack, which I absolutely love. And I'm very grateful to them for their, for their platform. And what that does is it gives you the ease of navigation of a book., you know, what could be simpler, right. It stays in one place and you just flip the page when you're ready and the interactivity and dynamic qualities of all of it, the internet so it removes the navigational complexity to as low as possible. And yet you can really up the dynamic interactivity. And, uh, I'm really excited about that, uh, because it. It makes it, it makes learners more independent. So for example, I was thinking I was racking my brain, you know, I, how do I guide people through a process where I tell them, you know, if you were in a live coaching, say, even live online coaching. You know, you would talk and say, now do this, and then the learner would do something, and you say, aha, okay that's how that worked for you. Now let's do the next step. It's challenging to do that with video. I mean, you can say. Stop the video and do what I just said. And then start again when you're ready. The problem that happens with that is video is a medium that's designed to move. And if you're telling people to stop the video you're kind of working against the affordances of the medium you've chosen. So I thought, okay, I need something that allows for short videos that stop, you know, at the place where I want someone to take action. And then when they're ready, they go to the next step. So the flipbook is perfect for that because I could just put a different short video on each page of the flip book. And it actually, the way I set it up, the video covers the whole page and the background looks like, it looks like I'm just on the page talking to you, like I'm popping out of the page and you know, and some of these videos are 30 seconds, 30, you know, one and a half minutes, two minutes with very targeted instructions. And the other interesting thing I remember, I mentioned the friction that happens when people download stuff, which you'd think would be easy. But I actually learned it in, in your amazing, uh, business ignition bootcamp. Uh, I remember one of the tech people telling me that downloading PDFs was one of the biggest tech-calls you guys got. And I remember at the time I didn't believe it until I started running my own course. So. You know, instead of providing a lot of downloads, which, you know, I do with love in my heart, and I think I'm being gracious and I'm giving people something, but then they can't access it often for various reasons. I said, instead of that, let's have learners use their own note, taking methods or mind mapping or whatever technique they're most comfortable with for processing information. And I'll guide them through it, but they won't have to download anything. There are very few downloads in my course, but not too many. And I ran this by a beta tester who's very, she's not techie. And she loved it. She said, I was so happy that I got to use paper and pencil and do it my own way. And she told me something very interesting. She said that for her, she only uses Microsoft word when she's kind of done all her note taking done all her brainstorming, and this is a finished product. So asking her to, you know, think out of the gate in Microsoft word was very stressful for her. I didn't know that, you know, that's, that's one person's experience, but it might be many. Danny: [00:25:50] awesome. That was really great. Thank you. Rebecca: [17:19:00] So. So having people use the tools that they're comfortable with, with no friction from the intro, the online interface, and just using the online interface as a way to deliver the instruction has really been interesting. And I'm, you know, the real test will be to see, you know, does this reduce the number of tech support calls? Because basically that cognitive load is what is the bottleneck that limits the scalability of a course. What I want to solve for is how do you make the course interactive, engaging learner focused And I'll talk about that more in one minute and scalable at the same time? And, you know, I had solved for the, the first ones, but I hadn't solved for the scalability. And that's where the flip books are helping because they're reducing the complexity of the navigation and keeping a whole lesson in one course player window on a learning management system. So you don't have to scroll as much. So in terms of the, the, um, helping people learn in their own way. That's where the, you know, using your own tools rather than downloading tools from a course that gets into a topic, uh, related to, you know, how people process information and. I had, when I was thinking about how to scale my, my master course, I thought I've got like a high-end bistro boutique restaurant, you know, where I love to serve everyone, you know, exactly what they need, you know, cook to order artisanal. And how do I scale that? And the aha moment that I had was I have to make it self-service. So what I've tried to do is create a self-service version of that, where, you know, you, you cook it up the way that that works for you, but I give you everything you need to make that happen. [19:17] Abe: [00:19:23] Great, Danny, did you have a follow up on that or? Danny: [00:19:28] I was just reviewing my notes. That was very comprehensive. So I feel like I've got that. I'm really, I'm really happy with where we landed. Rebecca: [00:19:35] Oh, good. [19:36] Danny [19:30] Is there anything else you wanted to share? That’s important for us to know? I mean, I think we’ve got a really solid episode here. Rebecca: [24:18] It’s so great to have all these amazing platforms. I’m a thinkific expert on ruzuku, which is so great for promoting interaction between learners. Thankful for the context. And of course Flipsnack, flipbook making. None of this could happen without all those supportive structures. So I feel like my specific role is to say, how do we navigate between all that to create a learning experience that makes light bulbs go off in people’s minds. That my mission is to light up the planet, one mind at a time. [24:54] Danny: I love that.

Rebecca: And so. Thank you. So [24:56] 
 [Have Danny overlap Rebecca saying “thank you” so that when we cut Rebecca off, it won’t sound like that.]
 Danny: [00:25:50] Awesome. That was really great. Thank you. Rebecca: Thank you, Danny. I’m so grateful for the opportunity. [25:57] [MX] Dresden_The_Flamingo_Coo_Coos_instrumental_2_16.wav begins ducked low, beneath the read-out. No break. Danny: [00:26:06] well, I'm very glad. All right, I'm going to do the readout. Um, tell me if I get this right.

 Danny: [00:26:14] Rebecca Cuevas is the CEO and founder of learn and get smarter where she teaches busy creative experts and entrepreneurs to design effective and engaging online courses. You can find her at learnandgetsmarter.com. that's learn and get smarter.com. [26:33] And I'm going to do the alternative version that's Cynthia can use if, uh, if he wants to, or you can go to learn and get smarter.com/results to learn how to outline your course in just a few days. Rebecca: [00:26:43] Fabulous. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I probably the first one's probably better because you know, not the learning how to LA of course in just a few days. is like one [MX] Dresden_The_Flamingo_Coo_Coos_instrumental_2_16.wav plays at full volume for 3 second break, and then ducks low beneath the transition. 

 Danny Danny CLab transition1.wav [00:00] Now stick around for my favorite part of the show where Abe and I will pull out the best takeaways for you to apply to your course. 
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 [MX] Shimmer_Grace_instrumental_4_12.wav. The opening of this music is very distinctive, so let it complete (about 7-8 seconds) at full volume before ducking. Grace fades under “dissect.” This section uses “part 2” wav files for each speaker. Abe: CLab Rebecca debrief Abe.wav [00:00:00] All right, Danny. It is time for the debrief. I had a really interesting example of course today from Rebecca. Uh, what was, what was jumping out for you? Danny: CLab Rebecca debrief Danny.wav [00:00:11] well, I mean, I really, uh, I'm feeling really excited about the digital flip book, um, idea as a, as a container to hold. I'll say that again. I'm really excited about the digital flip book idea for how to kind of serve as the container for all the course materials. Um, I think that's a really interesting idea and a really interesting response to the core challenge of cognitive load that is just inherent with navigating a platform that you may be unfamiliar with. So kind of really looking at how do you minimize that friction? Um, I thought that was really cool. I honestly, I don't have much to add. I think, uh, and this is an area that Rebecca is an expert in and she, you know, share articulated it very well. Abe: [00:00:53] Yeah, but that's certainly something we can pull out as a principal that, that people should be aware of and should. You know, seek to apply and implement in their own courses. that it's not just about the content that you have, or, you know, how you help people solve problems or, or gain new understanding, or get to a result. It's also how you present that in a way that is not going to be overwhelming. And that is going to, you know, give them the right structure that they need to actually progress through the material. you know, that's where a lot of courses that are designed by world-class experts can actually fall short because they're too complex. Right. They, they assume too much on the part of the learner and wind up, um, imposing, essentially a mental burden that is too high to facilitate effective learning. you know, in, in some ways it's almost, we talk sometimes about the curse of knowledge and how it's, it's almost easier to design a course if you're, you know, less, further along in your journey, once your knowledge is so internalized and so unconscious that you don't notice it anymore. It's hard to remember what it's like to be a beginner in a domain. But Rebecca has worked really hard to unpack that and to figure out what is it like for someone who is just starting to design their own online course? And how do you make that experience not so overwhelming for them. Danny: [00:02:19] I really like the insight that whenever possible, if it's feasible, it doesn't compromise the learning experience. You want to allow people to work with their own tools, work with the tools that they're comfortable with. That way it's just more intuitive for them. Abe: [00:02:32] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think a lot of why she was able to generate these insights, it's not just from her background and education research, but it's because just like she started with coaching and working with private clients and then, you know, developed the insights, the understanding about people's questions and challenges and needs that then informed her course design. And, you know, especially for people who don't have the, the breadth of knowledge and background about learning design that Rebecca does, that could be a really, really great way to start because there's nothing like that. Immersive engagement with specific clients where you're talking directly with them and getting really deep into their questions and challenges that that's really gonna allow you to design a course much, much more effectively than if you just try to kind of outline it based on general knowledge. [3:24] [MX] Chelsea_McGough_Carousel_Lights_instrumental_1_38.wav begins ducked (no break) Danny: [00:03:29] I don't have anything else… [00:03:32] to add? [00:03:44] So should I go straight to the readout? Abe: [00:03:48] Yeah. Go for it. [MX]Chelsea_McGough_Carousel_Lights_instrumental_1_38.wav rises to full volume for 2-3 seconds, and then ducks beneath the entire length of the credits. Danny: [00:03:51] writing myself a note? thank you for listening to chorus lab I'm Danny Iny, founder and CEO of Mirasee here with Abe crystal co-founder of Ruzuku. This episode, of course, lab was produced by Cynthia Lamb, Michi Lantz wrote and assembled the episode. Danny that's me is the executive producer. big thanks to Rebecca Cuevas for taking the time to share her passion regarding her course. I'm going to change that line. Big, thanks to Rebecca Big thanks to Rebecca Cuevas for taking the time to tell us about her course. You can learn more about her work at learnandgetsmarter.com. that's learn and get smarter.com. Don't forget to tune into Mirasee's new podcast, making it. in each episode, in each episode, a successful entrepreneur shares what making it means to them and what they've learned along the way. and to make sure you don't miss the really great episodes that are coming up on course lab. And to make sure that you don't miss any it's annoying when that happens And to make sure you don't miss any of the really great episodes coming up on course lab, subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. And if you liked the show, please leave us a starred review. It's the best way to help us get these ideas to more people. Thank you. We'll see you next time. I think that's it. 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 Only allow a half-second of silence or less before starting the audio (We don’t want people to turn off the podcast.) This section uses Part 1 files again: Rebecca: Rebecca: Clab RebeccaC Part 1 Rebecca.wav [25:59] And of course, knowing that I was going to be on the show got me to finish everything really fast. It was very motivating. Danny: Clab RebeccaC Danny.wav [laughs] Well I’m very glad. I’m going to do the read-out. Tell me if I get this right. Rebecca: Okay. [26:13] [Allow a beat, then play the stinger] 
[SFX] Mirasee final sig sound (10707_SFX).wav. - - - - - - - - - - Notes to Editor: Rebecca uses a lot of “you know”, and I want them to be cut if it’s not relevant to the sentence. However, don't cut if it results in a clipped edit. Course Correct is a show in two parts. In the first part Danny and Abe interview a course creator. In the second part, they debrief. While we like a natural feel, please cut mouth and nose noises (sucks, loud swallows, and sniffs). Please remove most stammers and filler words like Uhm, uh, or repeated words. Please follow the script for cuts and edits (red cross-outs).